Beginner’s Guide to Cruising

Jenn: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Travel Mug Podcast. We are so excited to welcome our pal, Geoff, from Abeam Travel Design back to the podcast. Ooh, if you're watching on video, there's very exciting things happening. Uh, if you if you missed it

Meggan: that, that sounds different than what it is, but you'll have to tune in and see

Jenn: Yes. Uh, if you missed his last episode here with us, it was all about Aeroplan and Air Canada status, so you can scroll back and check that out. I'll link it down in the show notes, too. But today, he is here to talk to us all about a beginner's guide to cruising. Now, I have dabbled in cruising. Meggan, I think you've also dabbled in cruising.

Well, yes, same. I had one, uh, that I actually went on, and then a second one booked that COVID killed,

Meggan: Naturally

Jenn: of course, but we are far from experts, so [00:01:00] we brought in reinforcements. Welcome back, Geoff.

Geoff: It is a pleasure to be here

Jenn: Yeah, so tell us when did you fall in love with cruising and how many cruises have you been on? Have you lost count at this point?

Geoff: Um, well I think I've, I think the number's 10 but it could be nine, but it's around there. The first cruise I'd done was in 2005, that's how old I am.

Meggan: It is. You were three

Jenn: Yeah.

Geoff: clear- clearly. And for anyone watching that video is like, "How is this guy doing cruises at 3? That's weird."

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: but I've done about 10 cruises. My first one was a Carnival Victory 2005.

The ship is still, um, going and it was old when I was on it. , I, I liked cruising, I got a good taste for it at that point and I had, you know, I'd done some other ones over the years but I, you know, I think that, um, I sort of re-fell in love with it in the last couple of years. I've done a couple of Virgin Voyages and, uh, in 2024 was my [00:02:00] first one. And, um, yeah it was like, I really like cruising. I rediscovered that when I did a Virgin Voyages. But yeah, so it's been about 10

Meggan: Excellent.

Jenn: Wait.

Meggan: I did not like it.

Jenn: Oh

Meggan: I've only been on the one, and it was not for me. Not to say I'll never do it again or give it a try again, 'cause maybe I could discover it. I couldn't rediscover it, 'cause I didn't like it the first time, but I could discover that I like it. Um, yeah, I just, I'm a, a land dweller.

Uh, my father's a fisherman, and, uh, I think maybe that's not in my genes. So that was sort of not for me. But I'm excited to sort of understand from your perspective, like what you can share as well, and I think that leads to a good first point. Because before someone books a cruise, they kind of need to decide, if possible, if cruising is the right type of vacation for them. So can you sort of then talk to us, like what are the biggest advantages of cruising compared to a land vacation, in your opinion?

Geoff: Well, first of all, I [00:03:00] would say if you've only tried it once, the saying is, "I'll try anything twice." So I do think that it's possible you were on just the wrong ship, or you were on the wrong cruise line, or you did the wrong itinerary,

Meggan: very possible

Geoff: or you went the wrong time of year. Like, all these factors would, would certainly, um, you know, play against you.

But, you know, if you have a, a crazy fear of boats, for example, then obviously cruising's not for you. I would say cruising gives you a lot of variety. So you get, you get the chance to, uh, like in Europe, for example, you can unpack once and you can visit, you know, 20 cities or depending on how long a cruise you do. Um, and in the Caribbean, it c- it's the same thing. It gives you that ability to, , see a bunch of different places all in the same week without having to move hotels and have to fly between different cities. So it's, that's definitely the biggest, um, you know, kinda advantage to cruising. If you, if you like idea of sitting down and doing absolutely [00:04:00] nothing at an all-inclusive, you can still do that on a cruise ship, uh, you know, as well. There's always something to do. There's, most cruise lines especially, you know, if you pick the right one, has the things that you're gonna wanna do, uh, karaoke, comedy shows. Some of them have, you know, Broadway level entertainment. Uh, if you're a foodie, some of them are notoriously amazing at food. So those are some of the, you know and there's casinos. So, like, some people go on a ship, and they bury themselves in the hull in the casino, and no one sees them for seven days. Some people are health nuts and actually go to do fitness classes and enjoy getting a good tan. Like, you can do so much on a cruise.

So I think that's the advantage is that there's just a lot of flexibility in what you do and, uh, and how you wanna spend your vacation

Jenn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that sounds right. Like, we did, uh, one cruise that, uh, went to the Bahamas and, uh, it was really nice to kind of get a sampler platter, kind of like check out a couple of [00:05:00] different islands and see what they were like. So that was one thing that I did really like about it. But what do you think are the biggest disadvantages of cruising?

Geoff: You know, it's funny, I think the disadvantages are actually some of the advantages because for

Meggan: ohhh

Geoff: find, uh, FOMO is such a thing because, um, ignorance can be bliss. Like, if you go to an all-inclusive resort and there could be all sorts of stuff happening, you don't know about it. You're just content to sit around a pool and enjoy life. Sometimes on certain cruise lines is, everything is like, "Today is gonna be bingo in this place, and there's gonna be karaoke in this place, and don't forget the 50/50 draw happening." Like, it's just so many things over and over again, and sometimes that can actually be, like, you feel like you're pulled in a lot of directions, and you feel if you don't go, go, go, you're gonna miss out on your vacation.

So that's, that's number one. Um, and I would say not a- I don't work for Virgin Voyages. I would say Virgin Voyages was really good [00:06:00] for that because literally you heard an announcement saying, "Welcome aboard," and then the la- next one was, "Thanks for coming, folks." Like, there's, they just leave you alone to enjoy your vacation. So that's, that's one of them. If your goal is to completely unplug and do absolutely nothing, a cruise could feel kind of busy. Um, and you know, if you're someone who wants less people, cruises can also feel people-y, so that's where maybe picking, um, uh, the right route or the right ship or, you know, the right time of year where there's less people gonna be on the ship is a good idea.

But you know, cruising isn't for everybody, so maybe if you work with, uh, a skilled travel advisor, and they can ask you some of these qualifying questions, they would probably say, "Why don't we save your money and not do this and spend it and do something you will like?" So I, you know, I do think there's something for everybody, but, you know, Meggan pointed out that it wasn't for her.

But, you know, maybe she just needs a better travel advisor [00:07:00] to get her on

Meggan: Maybe, maybe I do, Geoff

Geoff: We'll talk after the show

Jenn: Yeah.

Meggan: Call my people. And Jenn's my people, so get in touch with her

Jenn: I'm not organizing your trips, Meggan. I can barely do my own

Geoff: actually, this whole podcast was a, a ploy to get you. This is your intervention. So sh- so Jenn designed the entire thing around really it's about getting you back on a ship. It's

Meggan: All right all right.

If she, if she go- if she goes with me, I might do it

Jenn: Oh.

Geoff: We have other

Jenn: Uhhuh

Meggan: Oh,

Geoff: now

Meggan: wow. Wow.

Jenn: All right. the, the, the Travel Mug Podcast Cruise? All right. I mean, I...

Geoff: Oh, one other thing I actually should say is seasickness. Some people do get seasick, and that could be a big disadvantage of a cruise. But you know what? I, I rarely see people actually get seasick because the cruise ships have these massive stabilizers, and they're designed so that you don't feel movement, and sometimes you will, but it's very rare

Jenn: Yeah, I did get seasick on [00:08:00] the cruise that I was on, but it was extremely rough that day. And so it, it, it was, you know, things were moving on the ship. Uh, so it, it was, I think, a, a fluke. Like, it was just the last day that I got sick. The other days I was fine, and I am extremely prone to motion sickness, so yeah.

Uh, what type of traveler do you think enjoys cruising the most?

Geoff: I think it's, you know what? It's, it's, it's probably not so much a particular profile of who would like cruising because cruising is completely different depending on the cruise ship you do, for example. Um, so there's, there's some people who would like, who would do one particular cruise line and would never enjoy any other one, and they, like I have clients and friends who've done multiple cruise lines and they hated one and loved the other.

So that you'd say they're not a cruiser based on their experience with one, but they are very much o- on another. Um, but I do think the type of traveler profile a cruise would really work for in terms of like, you know, for [00:09:00] sure, is a lot of times like groups, if you're going with a family or a family reunion, like rather than lock you with 10 of your family members in a, you know, a, a big house on a beach or doing an all-inclusive where you have to stare at each other for 10 days and decide who gets murdered first, um, you could do a cruise ship, and when you do that, everybody can do whatever they want and everyone lives happily in peace. I do think the advantage of that is that everyone's into different things. Like if you have a friend who really loves to gamble, they could go to the casino, and someone else really loves going to the shows. Um, I'm doing a cruise, this fall and my sister's going. She doesn't like to sunbathe, she doesn't like to sit around a pool, but she loves going to comedy shows, she loves karaoke, uh, you know, those kinds of things, so like she'll just go do her own thing.

Um, and even when I've gone with friends or my partner, like we do our own thing and we meet for dinner in the evenings and everyone's happy. You don't get sick of [00:10:00] each other. So I think that's a really good one. And for couples, if, if you have a husband or a wife or a girlfriend or boyfriend or partner, whoever, and they're not into the same things as you when you travel, vacationing as a cruise could be great because you can do whatever you want.

Meggan: Yeah.

Jenn: Hmm. I didn't think about that. That is, uh, that is really interesting, for sure. Uh, okay, let's talk about choosing a cruise, 'cause we've kind of alluded to, like, this is th- this is the big thing, right? This... And it can be really overwhelming. So how did you or how do you choose a cruise line, and, like, are they actually different?

Geoff: Oh my goodness, so different. Cruises, like, there's so much variety in, in the cruise industry now that just starting off from scratch and going, "I'd like to do a cruise." mean, um, if you were to take ... I can give you a couple of good examples. So Royal Caribbean, for example, um, very great with entertainment. They're like, you know, Broadway style entertainment at sea, [00:11:00] but they're also very family friendly. So you're not gonna do a Royal Caribbean, um, ship and it feel like there's no children there. So if you're, you know, a couple with no kids and you don't, or you have kids but you're leaving them home and you want a vacation away from children, that is not gonna be the way to do it. Um, Virgin Voyages is very adults, it's adults only, so it is very adult friendly. It's very relaxed. It's very, um, very open and accepting and welcoming and, um, they do, they do the entire cruise experience completely different than all the other ones. Um, they don't do buffets for example. So cruises are huge with, if you're a big, you know, foodie, cruises are obviously a great place to go and eat your face off. Uh, it's one of those vacations you may come back weighing a little bit more than when you first got there, but there are gyms. Um, but um, but yeah, so like if you want that experience, that would be where you'd wanna go. Um, if you're, you know, not everyone that does Holland America is, you know, of the older demographic, but it [00:12:00] does tend to lean towards some of the older folks. They do longer voyages, which appeals to folks who are retired versus younger people who maybe have a week off. Um, if you wanna do, uh, you know, we didn't really, this is, this seems to be more around ocean cruising, but river cruises can be quite expensive. They're smaller, smaller populations on board, 'cause they're smaller ships. They include just about everything, but they're also really expensive. So kinda, picking the, picking the cruise line kinda comes down to what your, your, um ... Well, again, travel, working as a travel advisor would actually be able to tell you the differences based on what you want. Um, and not just a plug for me, just for working with someone who does know what they're talking about.

But the food is a big thing, the inclusions, some cruise ships, um, like I've done a, a Royal Caribbean in the past, and I think the drink package cost me what the cruise fare was. So like, it can be very expensive. Uh, and then, you know, there's [00:13:00] Norwegian for example. I've done one of those in the winter. Very affordable, very, very great food, um, a really fun ship, uh, really well done everything. And most times the drink packages you can basically build into your price, uh, with, you know, Wi-Fi and shore excursion credits and things like that. So they had that mastered, and then you know what? There's also cruise lines like Disney that are ex- a fair bit ex- more expensive, uh, but would be super family-friendly.

So, you know, they're not the same, uh, in any way, shape, or form. The level of service you're gonna get, the style of service. , MSC, for example, is a big one. Um, they have a lot of North America sailings now, but, uh, they're very European style, so some folks, if they're used to that very, we'll say, American style of service, might be a little bit different on, uh, MSC

Meggan: And what's MSC sorry?

Geoff: So that is, um, it's another large cruise line.

They actually

Meggan: Okay

Geoff: Yeah, [00:14:00] it's, it's, they, they're really big in, in Europe. And uh, they have some beautiful new mega ships, , now that are competing with, uh, some of the other ones like Royal Caribbean and with NCL. They're all just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Like, the new NCL ship has, um, a water rollercoaster on board.

Jenn: They're, they're getting so big

Geoff: Yeah, and, and like the Royal Caribbean ship, which is the, one of them is the, the, the newer, um, series that they put out, are the biggest ships in the world. Um, they have water parks on there that rival water parks on land. Uh, and they have, you know, 30-plus restaurants, and they have, uh, courtyards and parks, and there's actually birds flying around the parks on the ship 'cause the, because they're so big.

Like, the birds don't even know that they're, that they're on a ship. So, um,

Meggan: glad to hear that, Geoff, 'cause I don't want the birds to be corralled.

Geoff: Yeah, yeah

Meggan: I think that's excellent. Now, another question that we did [00:15:00] have is how do you choose a cruise? So I guess what I, we mean by that is, like, do you look at itinerary, see where it's going? How big of a factor is that for you, or is it more about the ship itself?

Like, what are the big draws for you when you think of, of that piece of it?

Geoff: Well, everyone's gonna be different in terms of what their priorities would be. Um, some people is like, you know, some of my clients, it starts off with price. Like, how much does something cost? This is the budget I'm working for. And then it sort of puts us in a certain area of like, well, this, these are the cruises you could go with. if you're flexible in the time of year, that could obviously play in your favor because certain times of year it's cheaper than others. That's one thing. Some people like to do an itinerary that they have done before. Like, I had done one recently that I had done previously, and I chose that so that I didn't have FOMO, 'cause I didn't need to do anything.

Like, literally at the ports when everyone got off the ship, I enjoyed a quiet ship.

Meggan: Great

Geoff: that's, that's, that was the vacation I wanted. It was a [00:16:00] bit of a working holiday. I was doing some of this work onboard. And, um, so, you know, that's, that's one thing. But, but choosing, um, if some people wanna go places they haven't been to cross new places off of their travel bucket list.

So, um, for example, I, Egypt I still haven't been to. Um, it's a place that I would like to eventually go to. And there's a lot of cruise lines now that have stops for an overnight, uh, in, uh, in Cairo or Alexandria. So, like, that would be an example of choosing a cruise line that has that itinerary. Or, um, Holland America, even though maybe it skews older, they're one of the better ones for an Alaska cruise., So, like, they all sort of have their strengths that way. Um, Virgin Voyages does a lot of really cool kind of one-offs. They do, like, comedy, a comedy festival at sea. Um, they do ... Yeah, like so,

Meggan: Cool

Geoff: uh, yeah, they're even doing a, a, a sailing for, uh, a solar eclipse. Like, they make sure that the, like, they, they sort of, kind of theme them around, [00:17:00] uh, Christmases or Halloweens, and a lot of them do that as well. , So that's one thing. If, again, if you're looking for something that is adults only, you do have more limited options. Virgin Voyages is also very LGBT friendly, so that one is, uh, for folks who wanna feel like they can go on board, uh, feel really comfortable. Virgin Voyages has, um, rather than do, like, one cruise director, if you, if you kind of understand how that works, is there's one person who's in charge of your, all of the entertainment on board, and they're like the mayor of the ship, and everyone wants to see them.

And, and they're so busy, you, they never really feel like you see them around. Um, but on Virgin, they don't do that. They have a happenings cast. So there's, like, six or seven folks. They all are kind of split duty into this role, and they all have nicknames. They wear, like, these cool jumper suits.

There's a drag queen on every ship. So, like, yeah, like, they,

Meggan: That's awesome

Geoff: g- they, they do, they go out of their way to make it feel, um, more inclusive, so that's

Meggan: Yeah

Geoff: that's another way, you know, people choose. But, [00:18:00] um, yeah, I mean, sometimes people also wanna go on the newest, coolest ship. So, uh, yeah, it's not really a, a black and white

Meggan: Yeah

Geoff: question because it could be, it could be anything. I always tell people, you could do, like me and Jenn could go on a vacation seven days. She's on an NCL ship doing exactly the same route that I'm doing, uh, on a Royal Caribbean ship. Uh, we both left Miami. We're stopped at the same ports. We see each other at every port, but her vacation is totally different than mine because it's the same itinerary, but two very different vacations

Jenn: Hmm. Yeah, that's really interesting. And if you have someone come to you who is a beginner to cruising, is there a type of cruise that you recommend for them to try first, like a length of, particular length of cruise, or like a ship size, or even like a destination?

Geoff: yeah, I mean, I, I've had a few folks who it was their first time trying a cruise and, um, based, [00:19:00] based on some of these qualifying things, I was able to sort of recommend like, you know, "I think you'd really like this," or, "I think you'd really like that." Um, of the things a lot of people on a first-time cruise will do is they'll kinda, let's sample it by doing, um, one of those three or four-day cruises.

I think you mentioned you had done one. Those ones, the downside to that is they tend to be some of the older ships in, in a cruise line's fleet. and especially the ones that are like, you know, essay out of Miami that go to the Bahamas and back, they're kind of a, a bit of a booze cruise because it's meant for folks who live in probably the Florida area, uh, and they wanna just take

You know, if you lived in Florida you go, "Hey, what are you doing next weekend? Let's go on a cruise 'cause it's three days." Um, so it ends up being more party oriented, so if that's your first taste of cruising it might sour you from that. I did have a client, it was her first time cruising, her and her mother. Um, she left the husband home and she, it was a, a girls' trip. They went on the oldest ship in Celebrity's fleet, uh, and it was a f- four or [00:20:00] five-day sailing. They just wanted a little getaway out of Fort Lauderdale, and they loved it. They said the service was amazing, um, the food was great, everything was excellent. And despite it being, you know, a very old ship, uh, it was, you know, still well-maintained, but it gave them that taste that they do want more of it. So for them I had recommended it 'cause the price was right. It kinda suited the style of vacation that they wanted, and they were likely not gonna find a lot of kids on Celebrity Cruise's oldest ship out of Fort Lauderdale for five days.

So, uh, it was kind of a hit for them. But yeah, I mean, these, the booze cruise type ones for these three and four days are probably not your best start. you know, do a seven-day trip and see if you like it and yeah.

Jenn: Yeah. Uh, but if you do an old ship first, then it only gets better from there. Like, you can't go backwards to the old ship, I think, once you've been on a, like, brand new one

Geoff: Well, it's kinda like, you know, if you have never flown before [00:21:00] and you fly in, like, a pod

Jenn: Yeah.

Geoff: you're... And then, and then you have to go sit in, like, economy, then you're gonna be like, "What is this?" So it- you're right because I, I w- I had a couple of clients, um, back in February did a Virgin cruise, and it was their first cruise, and they had, they'd gone back and forth between a few different ones, and now they're kinda looking at some of the other ones, and I'm like, "Mm, you're not gonna like that one."

And it's not 'cause it's not great, it's just that when you compare, like, the NCL one I'd done, there was a lot of people on it who had d- who were big cruisers and had done all of the cruise lines. And everyone kinda had that, like, they were looking around at little children, like, doing cannonballs in pools, and, like, they were all, like, we were kind of a bunch of adults in an adults' pool, but kids were still everywhere, and they were like, "I miss Virgin." Like, it's just because it's, it's, it's a huge difference.

Meggan: Yeah, I would too

Geoff: yeah, and it's, so yeah, I mean, it's, it is definitely, um, you know, there's always bigger and better, but that's where if you do find the cruise line you do like, um, you could just do [00:22:00] bigger and better itineraries

Meggan: that makes a lot of sense. Um, and I think before we move on to pricing, 'cause you mentioned this already and that sort of helps determine things a lot of the time for people, like where you can start. But I guess as a travel advisor, I kinda wanna understand and let people know what is your role in the process for people?

Because of course some people wanna go it alone, uh, try to do their own thing, try to book their own thing, but what do you do for people in the actual booking process that you feel is that a- an advantage?

Geoff: So I think when you work with, um, any travel advisor or any professional and, you know, I mean, I could probably fix the sink in the basement that's been leaking for six months and I keep forgetting about it, um, because I don't need to call a plumber. I could just do it myself. I could look it up online, right?

Meggan: Right

Geoff: is the same thing. I mean, uh, when it comes to working with a travel advisor, I mean, some basic things you can, you can do yourself if you wanna book a flight, and you can certainly just go book a cruise. Um, where the advantage comes from is that if you do run into issues, travel [00:23:00] advisors, first of all, for no extra cost, will be the people that you can just reach out to them, so my clients will just shoot me a text or a mes- message on Facebook or wherever, however they normally connect with me. And then I just I will spend the time on hold if I have to. But because I have access to all of the partners' websites, like most of the cruise lines have a travel portal, I can actually resolve a lot of the issues that w- negate having to actually call into a customer service line. So that's one.

Meggan: Mm-hmm.

Geoff: Um, and then I g- I obviously get priority access when I do call in, so it speeds the process up for them. Um, there's also, like, the training aspect of it. So for example, with Virgin Voyages, I've done all their training because I think their product is awesome. Uh, and I'm gold certified with them, so I've done all of the training on all their, on all the ships, on all the restaurants, on all the excursions. So if you have questions about, um, you know, what life at sea is like on a certain ship, I'm gonna be able to answer that for you a lot better than you would find by reading a million things on [00:24:00] the internet.

Meggan: Yeah

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: it's the same, it is the same with all of them. It's the, it's the training I think is a big part of it.

Jenn: Yeah, I think that's, that's something really important to highlight. Like, if you have your heart set on a certain type or, or a certain cruise line, like, looking for an advisor that has experience. Um, for instance, I have a friend who is, like, obsessed with Disney cruising and has been on, like, I don't even know, 30, 40, like, crazy amount of Disney cruises.

And like, you know, she's been on every single ship. So, like, going to her for a Disney cruise makes sense 'cause she's able to tell, you know, you what, what they're like. But then, you know, she probably doesn't know anything about Virgin Voyages. So then, like, finding you to, to tell you about that is really important

Geoff: Yeah, and a lot of travel advisors do ... I don't know if your friend's a travel

Jenn: Yes.

Geoff: just

Jenn: Yeah,

No, no, no, she is a travel advisor, yeah. Yeah.

Geoff: lot of that.

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: I think, um, I think a lot of travel advisors, uh, either start off looking for a [00:25:00] niche or they eventually, or the niche finds them.

, For me, I've sort of still exploring what niche, uh, I'd like to be in. I, I love, I love helping people with cruises, 'cause it's, it's a lot of fun. Um, and the cool thing is that it doesn't cost you anything more to work with a travel advisor than if you book it yourself online. So at the very least, uh, when you are working with someone like me or your friend or whoever, um, is you're working with someone who probably has a small business like myself, uh, in your community, and that's the living they're trying to make by turning something they love into something, uh, that can help others.

So, I think that's probably one of the, one of the advantages of a travel advisor. Again, if you have someone who's doing it, like I'm not doing it for the money, I'm doing it 'cause I really like doing it. I gave up the, boring, mundane, , nine-to-five lifestyle because I, I really wanted to do travel, and it wasn't about the money.

So I think that's one of the advantages, advantages that I have with that. But, um, it's really [00:26:00] just the experience that you're, you're kinda going for. I mean, in a world with AI and with being able to Google things and like look stuff up and read reviews, still good to do your own homework. Uh, and sometimes people will literally

Like, I have one client who, I- she'll just, I have all ... She's booked with me, so she'll just literally send me a text and be like, "These are the dates, this is where I wanna go." So I like so for her, it's like she just likes to know that taking care of the actual clicking and clacking and booking things for her, and also I'm gonna make sure it goes right, and she has a go-to person.

But in her case, she just likes working with me, and um, and knows that it would cost her the same or probably a little lower with me. 'Cause in some cases I can sometimes get a little bit better deals with certain products than you would ge- ever get online. So I mean, I'm, I'm quoting like air and cruise for people for the price people are paying for cruises, and they're like, "How are you doing this?" I'm like, "I can't tell you my secrets."

Jenn: I have secrets. Yeah.

Meggan: Plus

Jenn: I prom-

Meggan: Geoff. You're a [00:27:00] delight. That's another reason.

Geoff: absolutely.

Meggan: Yes

Geoff: anchor sh- I have an anchor shirt for an episode on

Jenn: Yeah, Yeah, He's ready. He's ready.

Meggan: brand. You're on

Jenn: Yeah. So let's talk about, let's talk about pricing 'cause I think that some people might think that cruising is similar, uh, to, like, an all-inclusive, like, resort. So let's bust that myth. And what is actually... I, I can be. Let's talk about it. Like, what's actually included, uh, and then what do you usually pay extra for?

Geoff: Some cruise lines are like ultra inclusive and some are ultra uninclusive.

Meggan: Mm-hmm.

Geoff: and some are, some cruises you will feel like you've been nickeled and dimed for everything. Um, I've seen a, a th- a saying like on social media a million times, it's like that $1,000 cruise was the best $1,500, $3000

Jenn: Okay.

Geoff: can buy you.

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: it's like you, you go into it thinking that it's gonna cost one amount of money, but then like you [00:28:00] said, there, there are extras. So, um, to give you an, a really good example is I was working with a client today, and family of four, they wanna do a cruise. I priced it with flights, cruise, unlimited drinks, everything for, worked out to 2150 per person.

Everything. That's everything. So an all-inclusive out of, you know, Halifax or St. John's or any of the major cities in Canada is gonna cost you probably 2,500 or $3,000 per person. So some cruises can actually be, very affordable. That was with NCL. NCL, like I said, includes a lot of things. But if you don't know the upfront cost, there's also gratuities, so that's something that you have to pay for you don't probably pay for at a resort. At a resort you can bring a pile of ones or fives and you can tip as you wish. On cruises, they're usually built in. They, they pose them as more of a, I don't know, I wanna use air quotes and say, "A mandatory," gratuity because they are added automatically and you can certainly ask for [00:29:00] them to be taken off, but, uh, very few people do because it's, uh, you know, they call it crew appreciation. There's lots of, uh, lots of conversations in the travel world about that because people get frustrated by it 'cause it

Meggan: Mmhmm

Geoff: cost. But it could be about 180 to little, you know, 160 to 180, somewhere around there per person for a week. Um, plus you also have to get there. If you aren't booking flights with it, that's a cost that, you know, is extra.

Gotta keep in mind that it, you need to get to the port, transfers, uh, from an airport. Uh, you can't just fly in the day of. That's, if I forget, if I say nothing else today, it's that you can't, especially living in Atlantic Canada, you can't just go, "I'm going to do a cruise and I'm going to fly out on Saturday morning from St. John or Moncton or Halifax, and I'm gonna board that cruise ship in February."

Jenn: No

Meggan: Ok, dar

Geoff: if you miss y- if you miss your cruise because of your flight, well, that's gonna really suck. So you also have a hotel, so that's another expense up front. So, um, [00:30:00] yeah, like I, I personally give people the, "Here is everything and what it costs." So sometimes people will compare a price I give them and say, "That's not as, not as cheap as what I found." It's like, "Yeah, but did you add everything else to it?" So, um, you're right, it, there, there can be more, but it's, it's not, it's not that much more expensive than, than any other type of vacation. In some cases, a cruise is actually the cheapest vacation

Jenn: Yeah, like the, yeah, like you said, like a lot of things can be included, and it's nice f- as like a, I'll call it like an a la carte option if you wanna add things, like if you don't drink alcohol, and then you're like, "Okay, I don't need to add an alcoholic drink package because I'm not gonna use that." So it does have options, which is really nice

Geoff: And if you don't drink and you don't care what room you're in and you don't wanna do the shore excursions and you're literally going to gamble on a cruise ship, some people do, you

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: for super cheap. And [00:31:00] know what? I've, I will tell all your listeners and you guys, like, I don't know if you've realized this, but if you spend a lot of money on gambling and you do it on a cruise ship, like, you're gonna start getting free cruises.

Jenn: Mmhmm

Meggan: My co-worker got those because of

Jenn: Wow

Meggan: Yep. Yeah

Geoff: Yeah. I have friends who've, who've literally been, like with Princess Cruises have, and had, I think Holland America as well. You just, if you, you know, some people actually like to, you know, save $1,000 and just go to a casino and spend money on the tables and, and they are very well aware of that, and then all of a sudden you start getting a, "Hey, would you like to come on a free cruise?"

Jenn: Well, alright

Geoff: it pays. It's like going to Vegas and getting upgraded to a penthouse

Jenn: you go. All right, let's talk about the room.

Meggan: but

Jenn: Yeah

Meggan: can gamble and then work it to your advantage

Jenn: Yeah.

Uh, let's talk about the rooms. So choosing a room, it's important, it's overwhelming. I'm gonna ask you, do you think that balcony rooms are worth the extra money?

Geoff: I do,

Jenn: Okay

Geoff: Um, I love a balcony. I did a [00:32:00] inside room in the beginning and for people who are new to cruising are like, "What are you talking about?" There are usually three types of rooms on a cruise ship. There's an inside room which has no windows. It, it's always the cheapest. There's also smaller ones and bigger ones. Some cruise ships actually have virtual screens to make it look like you have a window, but it is inside.

Meggan: Sad

Geoff: Um, yeah, but you know what? Some people, um, love how black it is in there because when the

Meggan: Hmm

Geoff: are out, it's very dark. You can sleep really well. It's in the center of the ship so it gets, um, less motion at night than it

Meggan: True

Geoff: on the sides, on the sides of the ship.

So if you're lower and in the middle, you're gonna have a very, very smooth night. , There's also a ocean view, an ocean view which is a porthole, um, so you can see the ocean but, you know, you can't go out and, you know, look at it in person. Um, and then there's a balcony. So there's also balconies that have an obstructed view.

There's also a balcony that, you know, it could be behind a lifeboat, for example. It could be a large balcony. You could also [00:33:00] do a suite. We are really talking about basic rooms, but can do large suites, and owner suites, and penthouse suites, and all sorts of stuff if you have a little extra money to sp- a lot of extra money to spend.

But, I think a balcony is worth it. I personally love to sit out in the morning, have a coffee, just enjoy some peace. Some people like to do a bit of yoga or something on your patio in, in privacy and in quiet, uh, have a glass of wine at night or just read a book. Uh, Virgin Voyages actually has, um, uh, hammocks,

Jenn: Oh

Geoff: Yeah, every, every balcony has a hammock, so I just sit in a hammock with a book.

Jenn: That sounds perfect

Geoff: so it's It is, and you just watch the o- And also depends on, like, if you're in Europe and you're doing a cruise, having a balcony's kinda neat because you're going in and out of ports in these cities all the time, and sail away is always fun, so it's kinda cool to sit on your own balcony, uh, and actually see the cities or maybe see the sunset or sunrise. Um, so yeah.

Meggan: did love my balcony. That is one thing I will say I did [00:34:00] really enjoy is I went with, um, me and my mom shared a room, and the balcony, I loved to read out there, sit out there and drink coffee. Like, that was, that was definitely a highlight. I love the, I do love the ocean, so it da- that definitely was a highlight for me. So besides that, is there anything else people should know about choosing a room?

Geoff: Um, well, I mean, the location does matter. Um, when you book, when you book your room, so let's say you book a balcony, you can do, or, or any room type, but we'll go with balcony. You can do, um, what they call a guarantee and people are like, "Well, what the heck does that mean? I'm guaranteed to be there." It just means that we're guaranteeing that you're gonna get that, that room that you've asked for, a balcony, but we're not gonna tell you what r- what, um, what deck it's gonna be on or what, what room it is because we're, we don't know.

When we sell the rest of it, we'll let you know. So it could play in your favor because you could end up with, know, a better room because that's what's left. Um, or you won't, you won't get downgraded, but you could get upgraded. And it is cheaper, but you don't get to choose. So if you can choose and you could be on a deck that's not right be- right below a [00:35:00] nightclub, for example, or not right above something else or that's, you know, maybe, um, the best part of the ship is the midship. Because if you think about it, if you're on the 12th deck, uh, or say, yeah, 12th deck and your ship is 16 decks high and you're back and forth to those decks to go to the bars and to the buffets or to the restaurants or to the entertainment or any of those things, well, it's nice to be somewhere that's not a huge walk because when I go on a ship I don't ever use the elevator, not once, ever, because I consider that how I burn some extra, the calories from the extra food.

So I will go up and down those stairs all the time. So the midship, your room is actually gonna be right next to those kinda lobbies. They'll sen- usually on a big ship there's say, uh, minus some of those mega ships that Royal has, there's these two areas where the elevator banks are. There might be eight elevator banks and a set of stairs, and then further down towards the aft, which is the back, there's another one.

So if your room is close to one of those, it means you can come off the elevator or the [00:36:00] stairs and go right to your room. If y- if you're at the very back of the ship, so the aft, you could have a view of the, of the wake of the ship which is really cool, but it's a long walk. If you've ever seen these ships pull into harbor or St. John's and you've never been on a cruise ship, you can see how big they are. If you need to get from one side to the other, do the stairs, plus get somewhere, it's gonna be quite a workout. And if you've been enjoying some of those all-inclusive beverages, uh, those hallways are gonna seem an extra bit longer at 2:00 in the morning

Meggan: definitely. I love that advice. Excellent. See, these are the advantages. Geoff knows that stuff. So let's talk excursions Uh, should you book them through the cruise line, through your travel advisor? How does that work? What should people do, or what do people do?

Geoff: You can kind of do a little bit of whatever works for you really. I mean, I can book cr- the excursions for the cruise lines for you. Um, you can book yourself. Most of them, once you're booked, you can go into the app on your phone. They all have [00:37:00] an app. Uh, if they don't have an app, don't go on the cruise line, 'cause I don't know why a cruise line doesn't have an app now.

But an app, so you can go in, you can pick your shore excursions, and you can book them in advance. They can be very expensive through the cruise lines. Um, to give you an example, here in St. John's, I was looking at seeing what a shore excursion would be like for... I don't know, I think it was a Princess cruise coming to St. John's, and like what are they selling people to do in St. John's?

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: If you've ever been to St. John's, you know Signal Hill is one of the best things to do.

Meggan: Yup

Geoff: right next to it. I hike with the dog every day. It's an hour round trip. They will charge like $100 to drive you in a bus to the top of Signal Hill, and you have to walk back to the ship.

So like,

Meggan: Rude.

Geoff: "I will, I will pick you guys up for $5." so the point is, is sometimes they are definitely making money off... Well, they're always making money off you. But in some cases it's worth doing it because if you're gonna do an all-day, if you're going to, um, Mexico and your port is in, you know, you wanna do Chichen Itza, which is maybe a two or three-hour drive, well, if you do that with a local tour [00:38:00] company, first of all, they might not have the same insurance company, insurance that your cruise ship's gonna work with.

But you book it with the ship and your bus is late getting back because of traffic or because of something else, the ship will wait for you because you booked

Meggan: Uhuh

Geoff: ship, and it's guaranteed you're gonna get back on the ship. It's, it's a ship's excursion. So, um, that's an advantage because if you book on your own and you wander off and forget how to get back, you might miss the cruise. So that's, that's one of them. Um, but you know, if you're in Europe, maybe you wanna just do some exploring in through the cobblestone streets of Lisbon or you wanna, you know, do your own little w- beach walk in Cannes. So like you, you don't have to do a sh- a, a shore excursion I guess they would call it, but, um, they can certainly make a vacation more exciting. Um, for me, I've... The last few cruises I haven't booked a lot because I've done a lot of these ports, and honestly, I'm really comfortable [00:39:00] with exploring these places on my own. But you know, I recognize that not everybody, especially if you're a solo traveler, 'cause cruises are great for solo travelers, it might be a good way to meet other people and feel safer in places you're not sure

Meggan: Mmhmm

Jenn: Yeah, I agree. We booked ours through, uh, the cruise ship when we did them, and it was that, like, peace of mind that the, the, the ship's not gonna leave without me. Like, if something happens.

Meggan: nightmare

Jenn: I know, and have you guys, I don't know, Geoff, if you've seen, uh, like, the Instagram reels of people, like, running back to the ship?

Like, there's someone on the ship and they're, like, videoing these people, like, running. It's so funny.

Geoff: Totally made

Jenn: No, it's not. It's not.

Geoff: I've seen some of those debunked actually,

Jenn: Really?

Geoff: uh, I have been on ships and, you know, the, the, they'll say, like, "All aboard is 5:00," and all aboard means 5:00 is when you have to be here, and you, you know, you scan in and out, so they know exactly who's on the ships. Um, and in some ships they know exactly where you are because you have, have RFIDs in your [00:40:00] bracelets or your, your card, so they know exactly where you are on a ship. But, um, I've been on ships and it's like, "Would Mary Smith please come to customer ser-" Like, they'll just go page over and over and over again. It's like they know she's not on the ship, so they're just doing it, their du- due diligence, and they will wait and wait and wait. Like, will leave without you, but they're not gonna...

It's not like 6:00 on the dot sometimes. Like, y- I've seen people running down the pier and they get on the ship. Um, have people been left behind on ships I've been on? I, I don't know. I'm usually having a glass of wine, like,

Meggan: Not my problem

Geoff: I'm pulling out. Yeah, so, uh, but yeah, moral of the story is don't be silly.

Jenn: Don't, don't be late, friends. Don't be late.

Geoff: Don't be a silly goose.

Jenn: be a silly goose.

Geoff: the hashtag

Meggan: Yeah, that's advice for life

Jenn: But really though, uh, is there anything you pack, let's talk about packing, is there anything you pack specifically for cruises that you might not bring on a, you know, a land vacation?

Meggan: And is, and [00:41:00] like for overpackers, is there stuff you should just please leave home? Like, let's, talk to us just about packing for cruises in general

Geoff: Cruises, okay, so first of all, unless you are super bougie and you got a big budget, you're probably not in a massive suite with like walk-in closets, 'cause they do exist. The videos are out there. But, uh, there's lots of space on cruise ships. I mean, two of us will pack a full suit- ca- have a full suitcase, and there's tons of space and closets and drawers and all that stuff.

So you can, you know what? It's probably the one place you could you go to Europe for a week and, or whatever, and you're in these little hotels that don't even have a dresser or a closet, and you're like, "What, what are Europeans wearing?" Um,

Meggan: And where are they putting it?

Geoff: I, I don't know. They're just You know what it is, is it's the, the cheap airline culture of Europe has turned people into light packers.

Meggan: Yeah

Geoff: in North America or, you know, we're, we're used to just taking everything, so you can pack up everything you own and take it on a cruise ship pretty much. Um, there's space. But seriously, I think you, you don't need to feel I [00:42:00] think on a cruise ship you don't need to feel like you've overpacked because there's always these, like, theme nights, so you can, you know, you might wanna dress up.

So if you have that cocktail dress that you have no idea where to wear it, uh, maybe the cruise ship is a good night for it. They have formal nights. , Some of them have theme nights, like white parties or red parties or pajama parties or whatever. Or if you're going for Halloween, they might have a costume ball, or Christmas, like I did a Christmas cruise this past year, um, and it was amazing, but they do like, you know, Christmas Eve parties, and they...

Like Virgin Voyages is what it was, and they do, um, a scarlet night, so everyone dresses to the nines in this red stuff. Uh, and then maybe after the formal part of it, then you wanna change into a, a more nightclub-friendly outfit. Uh, people listening can't see me winking, but it's very, like, scandalous. People, people dress very, very risque on these, so it's kinda fun. Um, and so like, yeah, I mean, you can pack a bunch of stuff. You might get up in the morning and go for a [00:43:00] workout and then wear something to the pool and then wear something else and then change into s- Like you... It's like, it's like Downton Abbey where it's like, you know, "This is my dinner jacket, and this is my smoking coat," and you have all of these outfits, and it's totally okay. And, you know, little travel advisor tip is, like, I don't condone booking these kinda low-quality things off the internet and shipped from God only knows where, but, like, if you go on Shein and get these really cool, like, one-time wear things, like it could be a lot of fun for some theme days. But, um, so that's, that's one thing is, like, pack, you know...

And, and if you work with a travel advisor who knows a lot about the ship, they'll tell you all the things to pack, and they'll say, "Don't forget that there's a theme night, and there's this," so that can be a lot of fun. People pack towel clips for the beach chairs because you bring, you know, they, they provide a towel, but if it's windy and your towels are falling down, I don't have them, but I always get really jealous when I see people with them. Some people bring portable fans 'cause rooms don't have fans, [00:44:00] and sometimes they can be a bit warm. So I've seen people bring these, like, you know, Amazon fans that they

Meggan: Yeah

Geoff: that are like, you know. Um, sunscreen is expensive on board.

Meggan: Of course

Geoff: is expensive anywhere there is sunshine.

Meggan: Yes

Geoff: place to get sunshine is Newfoundland, so

Jenn: Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff: so

Meggan: Apply all your

Geoff: with

Meggan: sunscreen there

Geoff: Bring it with you. And, uh, and most of the packages I book people on have, like, a bag included because that's sort of the packages I do. So, like, there's no worries. Pack all this stuff. You don't need to be a hero and say, "I'm gonna do carry-on only." Like, on. Who, who are we kidding

Jenn: Who are we kidding?

Geoff: and what I'm just looking at my own little list.

Um, oh, most people don't realize, but on a cruise you can usually bring two bottles of wine per room

Jenn: Hmm. Yeah

Geoff: So it's a good chance to bring, um, you know, some nice wine or some champagne. and if you're leaving out of a US port and you're there a couple of days in advance, go to Costco, 'cause Kirkland champagne is like [00:45:00] $20 and a bottle of Prosecco is 5.99 US.

So like, come on folks

Meggan: You won't be getting that in Canada.

Jenn: No

Geoff: Nope. Nope

Jenn: Mm.

Yeah that is good to know

Meggan: it- so really, overpackers, uh, are welcome. I mean, it sounds like you can't go without being one. Although packing also, even though I'm an overpacker, stresses me out, and as you kept listing stuff, I'm like, like I was getting so anxious I'm like, how could I decide between all of that stuff? So again, maybe not for me, but I think that if people are able to cleverly pack and enjoy all the different experiences, it sounds like, that sounds like a blast

Geoff: I can be really bad for overpacking 'cause I'm, I'm

Meggan: Me too

Geoff: and I'm like, "I- what if I need this?" It's like, well, okay, what if... "I should take a raincoat." It's like, we're going to Dubai, like it doesn't rain. Like, you know, or like, or like, "I have to take a beach tent." It's like, you don't need a beach tent.

Like, y- you're gonna be at the beach for an hour, but no, just in [00:46:00] case.

Meggan: Yeah.

Geoff: taking everything with me. So, um, maybe you could like chill that down a bit. Do a bit of research about what, what does your cruise, uh, offer. Like some cruise lines have more things for people than, than others. Like I always bring, my tradition, um, get to know Geoff, welcome aboard to the, uh, travel, Travel Mug podcast. Uh, I have a, a slight chocolate addiction, and I will go to Costco and buy a 1 1/2 kilogram bag of Mini Eggs and take on board

Meggan: Ooh

Geoff: and I will eat them over the seven days, and then I will be made to feel guilty because I will apparently be the only person eating them.

Meggan: Right

Geoff: that. But like, but like some cruise ships don't have snacks, so

Jenn: Mmhmm

Geoff: you are someone who does like choc- They'll, like they'll have it, but you might have to purchase it.

Jenn: Hmm.

Geoff: and they'll have lots of cakes and cupcakes and cookies and all that stuff, but you might, you know, there might be something you really like to have. Those kinds of things are nice to know about. Um, if you are like, back to Virgin again, but they include all your fitness classes, so if you wanna do spin classes or yoga

You don't need to bring a yoga mat, but you need to bring your [00:47:00] yoga clothes, like that kinda stuff. So, um, it's good to know what you plan on doing and sorta plan it out there and take a few extra things and no one really... Like I bring like 30 pairs of shorts and wear the same pair probably every day 'cause they're my favorite.

So, you know, especially if the cruise includes alcohol, no one notices what you're

Jenn: Yeah.

Geoff: really don't.

Jenn: Yeah. They don't care. Yeah. All right, so to start wrapping up, uh, what are maybe one or two of the biggest mistakes that you think first-time cruisers make?

Geoff: Mm, probab- well, I would say probably just booking it themselves and not really knowing what they're booking, that, that's a, that's a big one. But, um, also people, people going with something that's the really, the cheapest. Like, you know, someone like, "I need the cheapest trip I could possibly do." It's like, well, the cheapest trip doesn't necessarily mean the best trip, and it actually doesn't mean the cheapest trip because now you have to add a bunch of stuff.

So it's

Jenn: Mmhmm

Geoff: understanding what the extras are, which you guys already asked me about.

Jenn: [00:48:00] Yeah

Geoff: um, that's one of the big- biggest mistakes. Um, it might be picking a ship for the wrong reasons. So, it's like, are you picking this ship because it's going to, the right places, but you fail to get that you're on a ship full of children? Like, you know, is that gonna drive you crazy? Or, or vice versa, are you on a ship with your family, like, did you book a family vacation on a Holland America ship? Because now your kids are getting looked at by a lot of folks who really wish they weren't there.

Meggan: Right

Geoff: can go on these... There's, there's kid-friendly and there's kid, like, there's family welcoming ships or family oriented, I guess,

Jenn: Yeah

Geoff: but then there's family, then there's kid, like, friendly, and then there's kid tolerated.

And, you know, um, and a lot of people travel with kids, and I book a lot of clients with their kids, so it's certainly not a dig on kids.

Meggan: Sure

Geoff: But it, it can be, it can hurt, it can kinda kill the vibe if you're looking for more of an adult thing.

Jenn: Mmhmm

Geoff: Um expecting, um, [00:49:00] you know, Wi-Fi, for example, is not, I have no idea why in 2026 it's just not like,

Meggan: It's, it's sad

Geoff: Wi-Fi.

It's like, you know, for example, NCL is like, "Yeah, we include Wi-Fi." And I tell clients, "Yes, it's included, but it's 120 minutes."

Jenn: Yeah, thanks so much

Geoff: I upgrade it to an unlimited higher speed because I was working from the ship, which was great. Um, know, just that, th- like, those are some of the kind of the low-hanging fruit. , People just get surprised when these cheap trips become these big nightmares, or maybe not realizing that you are booking the oldest ship in the fleet and then expecting, like, a really modern, fun experience. Like, those things can kinda ruin your vacation. Booking a cruise in, uh, September out of the Caribbean. hurricane

Jenn: Hurricane

Geoff: yeah, like, y- you know, there are cruises that go, and I have people that I've, that are wanting to go that time of year. It just, it sucks because it's extra stress you don't need. So

Meggan: Yeah

Geoff: that's when you, when working with a, a travel advisor is that they can [00:50:00] kinda say, like, "Maybe you don't wanna go to that place that time of year," or, "Why not consider this?"

Or, like, give you some other options. It's like, yeah. Like, I usually will give people three options, and I always throw a wild card in there that they, they were not even considering, and most times they pick my wild card,

Jenn: Okay.

Meggan: Ooh

Jenn: Well, that leads into my next question, it, which is where can listeners find you online to book a cruise? Because I'm sure, or another,

Meggan: type of

Jenn: or any other type of trip, I'm sure that they are now convinced that they should try a cruise and that they should book with you. So tell us where to find you

Geoff: Well, you can find me on Facebook, on Instagram, and the TikTok,

Jenn: Hmm

Geoff: and

Meggan: Ooh

Geoff: @abeamtravel. It's A-B-E-A-M travel, my handle. Uh, and it's abeamtraveldesign.ca, and it's a beam as in a beam of light. But it's, you know, a beam as in I'm with you along the route. And funny enough, cruises, I think you asked me [00:51:00] last time

Meggan: Yes

Geoff: and a beam is an aviation term, but it's also used in marine.

So a boat traveling, a beam another. So

Meggan: Hmm

Geoff: is a good, uh ... Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, no, I mean, uh, obviously shameless plug for myself, but working with a travel advisor, especially with cruises or a more complex trip versus just clicking and pointing and then regretting it later,

Meggan: Yeah

Geoff: is, uh, definitely worth it.

And, and a lot of times too, uh, the way I will book cruises for folks, um, I package them in, like Air Canada's a really good one I partner with on some of these packages, and then they guarantee you that if the flight's delayed they're gonna get you on your cruise. So if you miss the first port, they'll cover you getting to the f- the next port where it stops

Jenn: Well, that's good to know

Meggan: That's a good plug. That's a good plug to end on, Geoff. Excellent. Well, this has been amazing, and I know it's been super helpful, um, information for people considering a cruise, but also likely even for people who've been on them before. Good information is just good information, uh, regardless of how many times you've done it. And so thank [00:52:00] you for coming on the show. I have a feeling you'll be back. We like you, Geoff

Geoff: Well, you know, I think that, uh, three is a much more magical number than two, you know?

Meggan: Right. Third time will be a charm as well, I'm sure.

Geoff: you know?

Jenn: We do

Meggan: I know

Geoff: a pleasure and, uh, and I love your guys' uh, content and interesting tips all the time, and I am very happy to be a part of it

Meggan: Excellent. Well, thank you so much. And as for us, you can find us on social media as always, at Travel Mug Podcast, or our website travelmugpodcast.com. Feel free to leave us a review. Tell us what's on your mind at Apple or Spotify. And if you wanna support the show, uh, monetarily, um, you can buy us a coffee at the link in our show notes.

Safe travels, and don't forget your travel mug. Bye everyone.

[00:53:00]